Sabatina James, who cannot confess her surname for reasons of safety, has changed both name and passport frequently in order to travel to Afghanistan and her native Pakistan. She lives under constant police protection as a result of the death threat made by her own family and the fact she is on the 'Taliban’s death list'. The book in which she talks of her life and how she escaped from an arranged marriage at the age of 13 has become a bestseller in Austria and Germany, has already been published in France and Spain, Poland, the Czech Republic and is shortly to be published in the United States, Holland and the rest of Europe. She has taken part in the Woman World Awards alongside Queen Rania of Jordania and other female celebrities and will soon be interviewed on the Larry King television programme. Her conversion to Christianity has given her the strength and the faith necessary to set up her own foundation to defend the rights of women married against their will. She thinks that the war with the Taliban is the only solution and that diplomacy won’t work.
Juan Suárez, Sabatina James, Jürgen Bushe
Who brought you to Ibiza?
Jürgen Bushe, the editor of this magazine invited me when we met in Hamburg. We thought it would be interesting to discuss this subject in Ibiza since there are also many Muslims here. I was very interested to meet the Bishop of Ibiza, as I had done with the Archbishop of Austria. He was also very interested in the subject and I wanted to know if the church was interested in cases such as mine.
What was the basic reason you left the Muslim religion and converted to Christianity?
When I read the Bible I realized how important women were to Jesus and how he protected women that had had sexual relations before entering into wedlock. This really cannot be compared with the Koran, since the latter states specifically that men have the right to beat women if they are not obedient. I asked myself how it was possible that Jesus honoured women, the whole idea of the Bible is to love your enemies, even those who insult and persecute us. This really spoke to me and for that reason I decided to become a Christian.
Do you consider yourself to be a kind of religious dissident?
No, I don’t think so. I am not here to judge anyone. Everyone can believe what they want, I have just studied the Bible, it is something that has changed me and has made me very happy.
You have experienced the oppression of women in the Islamic world at first hand. What do you think about that way of looking at life and Sharia law?
The basic difference is that in that culture it is not looked down upon if a man beats a woman because she does not obey him. It is something you do not find in other religions such as Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. Ninety nine percent of homicides stemming from domestic violence are committed by men from a Muslim background. Sharia law accepts it, because they teach you from the time you’re young that a woman may be killed if she has sexual relations before she is married. The family’s honour is more important than that of the girl in particular. My mother said to me: you’re not more important than the honour of this family.
In her book she describes her numerous escapes and how she currently lives in Germany under police protection. What is it like knowing that your life is in constant danger and that you are threatened by inclusion on the 'Taliban’s death list'?
I live under permanent police protection in Germany, but it is very difficult to live with it. For reasons of safety, they don’t want me to give interviews or go on television to denounce what is happening, they say I’m a nightmare for the security teams because I do just the opposite. But I am not going to let them silence me, someone has to tell the truth. The Talibans have issued me with a death threat when I return to Pakistan, I ask God and I get the answer through the Bible, which tells us not to be afraid. Do you know something, in spite of the death threats and the police’s instructions not to travel, I went to Pakistan and here I am. The police that escort me told me that I was travelling completely under my own responsibility. It was a man who did not believe in God, but I think that after my return, he has started to believe… (laughter)
Jürgen Bushe, the editor of this magazine invited me when we met in Hamburg. We thought it would be interesting to discuss this subject in Ibiza since there are also many Muslims here. I was very interested to meet the Bishop of Ibiza, as I had done with the Archbishop of Austria. He was also very interested in the subject and I wanted to know if the church was interested in cases such as mine.
What was the basic reason you left the Muslim religion and converted to Christianity?
When I read the Bible I realized how important women were to Jesus and how he protected women that had had sexual relations before entering into wedlock. This really cannot be compared with the Koran, since the latter states specifically that men have the right to beat women if they are not obedient. I asked myself how it was possible that Jesus honoured women, the whole idea of the Bible is to love your enemies, even those who insult and persecute us. This really spoke to me and for that reason I decided to become a Christian.
Do you consider yourself to be a kind of religious dissident?
No, I don’t think so. I am not here to judge anyone. Everyone can believe what they want, I have just studied the Bible, it is something that has changed me and has made me very happy.
You have experienced the oppression of women in the Islamic world at first hand. What do you think about that way of looking at life and Sharia law?
The basic difference is that in that culture it is not looked down upon if a man beats a woman because she does not obey him. It is something you do not find in other religions such as Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. Ninety nine percent of homicides stemming from domestic violence are committed by men from a Muslim background. Sharia law accepts it, because they teach you from the time you’re young that a woman may be killed if she has sexual relations before she is married. The family’s honour is more important than that of the girl in particular. My mother said to me: you’re not more important than the honour of this family.
In her book she describes her numerous escapes and how she currently lives in Germany under police protection. What is it like knowing that your life is in constant danger and that you are threatened by inclusion on the 'Taliban’s death list'?
I live under permanent police protection in Germany, but it is very difficult to live with it. For reasons of safety, they don’t want me to give interviews or go on television to denounce what is happening, they say I’m a nightmare for the security teams because I do just the opposite. But I am not going to let them silence me, someone has to tell the truth. The Talibans have issued me with a death threat when I return to Pakistan, I ask God and I get the answer through the Bible, which tells us not to be afraid. Do you know something, in spite of the death threats and the police’s instructions not to travel, I went to Pakistan and here I am. The police that escort me told me that I was travelling completely under my own responsibility. It was a man who did not believe in God, but I think that after my return, he has started to believe… (laughter)
Sabatina James
You have taken part in the Woman World Award alongside Queen Rania of Jordan and other famous people. What was your relationship with the queen like?
The first time that I met her I was at the Women World Awards. There was a case of a nine year old girl from Yemen who found herself forced to get married to a 30 year old man and somehow she managed to get separated from him. She was awarded a prize for it, but in her country they did not let her leave to pick up the prize, so that Queen of Jordan attended in her place, but she did not criticise Yemen’s attitude, she didn’t do a thing. Monica Belluchi, Marianne Faithfull and other women who attended the event couldn’t believe it, we couldn’t understand why the country’s attitude wasn’t questioned. Someone should have demonstrated against it, but political interests are involved and they don’t denounce what is right or wrong.
Speaking of sexual relations, allow me to ask you what differences you find with regard to sex between Muslim and western customs...
I believe that nobody can or should force you to do anything, the Bible says so, it’s not that having sex before marriage is so important, it is something that I believe and for which I have opted, because I believe in God and I want to follow his doctrine and I know that he loves me. I am convinced of it and I do so out of love of God. There are many men out there, there must be some of them that like this about me, right? (laughter)
Have you achieved your dreams?
I have always wanted to help women that have been in the same situation as I have. I have my own organisation, Sabatina E.V. So that dream has been accomplished. I am changing the lives of many people and that makes me very happy. These women trust me because they know that I have experienced the same thing that they have and I understand their culture.
Talking of human rights and their defence, as you know President Barack Obama has intensified the so-called “war for peace” in Afghanistan What is your opinion of the current ongoing conflicts between the Muslim world and the West?
I think that what is happening in Afghanistan and other countries is really sad. But to be honest, I have to say that I am really happy that American and NATO soldiers are in Afghanistan because the Taliban don’t understand dialogue. If you don’t think the same as them you are an enemy that has to be defeated. I sponsor a girls’ school in Afghanistan and last week the director called me to tell me that the girls couldn’t go to school for a week, because the Taliban had forbidden it and told them that if they did, then they would bomb the school. If the American and NATO soldiers had not been there to defend certain positions they would bomb them straight away. Sometimes war is the only answer. If for example, someone breaks into my house and wants to kill my son, it would force me to kill them first. This is what Barack Obama is doing.
You don’t believe in diplomacy as a weapon of dissuasion?
There are some things that you cannot solve with diplomacy, the Taliban don’t believe in diplomacy, their only diplomacy is Allah. I had a meeting with the son of President Zardari of Pakistan, Bilawal Bhutto (the son of Benazir Bhutto who was assassinated in 2007) and he said there that they reached a settlement with the Taliban, letting them have a region where they could live according to their customs, their laws, to oppress and kill women, but after a certain time they wanted more land and more power. You cannot talk to these people, if they attack you, you have to defend yourself by attacking them, because there is no other solution.
Is terrorism the only way?
They even believe that they do not need weapons because they have the strength of their beliefs. Within 30 years one in every two Germans will be Muslim. They think that Europeans do not have religious beliefs, that the churches are empty and dead and that they will end up converting to Islam. That is why they are building mosques, there are already 2000 of them
in Germany and now they are going to build the biggest mosque in Europe in Cologne with a budget of more than 20 million Euros. They have got the economic backing but nobody helps my foundation to contribute to freedom from oppression for women. I don’t think they will manage to dominate the world if we protect ourselves and remain aware of our western beliefs and defend democracy.
Do you believe that European democracies ought to be inflexible towards Islamic customs?
If someone comes to Europe, they have to adapt to European customs. If I go to another country with different customs, I have to do the same thing. I think it is good that people come, keep their gastronomic and cultural traditions but they have to follow the laws that are in place here. I say: we are happy that you are here, but you have to respect our rules, not yours.
The first time that I met her I was at the Women World Awards. There was a case of a nine year old girl from Yemen who found herself forced to get married to a 30 year old man and somehow she managed to get separated from him. She was awarded a prize for it, but in her country they did not let her leave to pick up the prize, so that Queen of Jordan attended in her place, but she did not criticise Yemen’s attitude, she didn’t do a thing. Monica Belluchi, Marianne Faithfull and other women who attended the event couldn’t believe it, we couldn’t understand why the country’s attitude wasn’t questioned. Someone should have demonstrated against it, but political interests are involved and they don’t denounce what is right or wrong.
Speaking of sexual relations, allow me to ask you what differences you find with regard to sex between Muslim and western customs...
I believe that nobody can or should force you to do anything, the Bible says so, it’s not that having sex before marriage is so important, it is something that I believe and for which I have opted, because I believe in God and I want to follow his doctrine and I know that he loves me. I am convinced of it and I do so out of love of God. There are many men out there, there must be some of them that like this about me, right? (laughter)
Have you achieved your dreams?
I have always wanted to help women that have been in the same situation as I have. I have my own organisation, Sabatina E.V. So that dream has been accomplished. I am changing the lives of many people and that makes me very happy. These women trust me because they know that I have experienced the same thing that they have and I understand their culture.
Talking of human rights and their defence, as you know President Barack Obama has intensified the so-called “war for peace” in Afghanistan What is your opinion of the current ongoing conflicts between the Muslim world and the West?
I think that what is happening in Afghanistan and other countries is really sad. But to be honest, I have to say that I am really happy that American and NATO soldiers are in Afghanistan because the Taliban don’t understand dialogue. If you don’t think the same as them you are an enemy that has to be defeated. I sponsor a girls’ school in Afghanistan and last week the director called me to tell me that the girls couldn’t go to school for a week, because the Taliban had forbidden it and told them that if they did, then they would bomb the school. If the American and NATO soldiers had not been there to defend certain positions they would bomb them straight away. Sometimes war is the only answer. If for example, someone breaks into my house and wants to kill my son, it would force me to kill them first. This is what Barack Obama is doing.
You don’t believe in diplomacy as a weapon of dissuasion?
There are some things that you cannot solve with diplomacy, the Taliban don’t believe in diplomacy, their only diplomacy is Allah. I had a meeting with the son of President Zardari of Pakistan, Bilawal Bhutto (the son of Benazir Bhutto who was assassinated in 2007) and he said there that they reached a settlement with the Taliban, letting them have a region where they could live according to their customs, their laws, to oppress and kill women, but after a certain time they wanted more land and more power. You cannot talk to these people, if they attack you, you have to defend yourself by attacking them, because there is no other solution.
Is terrorism the only way?
They even believe that they do not need weapons because they have the strength of their beliefs. Within 30 years one in every two Germans will be Muslim. They think that Europeans do not have religious beliefs, that the churches are empty and dead and that they will end up converting to Islam. That is why they are building mosques, there are already 2000 of them
in Germany and now they are going to build the biggest mosque in Europe in Cologne with a budget of more than 20 million Euros. They have got the economic backing but nobody helps my foundation to contribute to freedom from oppression for women. I don’t think they will manage to dominate the world if we protect ourselves and remain aware of our western beliefs and defend democracy.
Do you believe that European democracies ought to be inflexible towards Islamic customs?
If someone comes to Europe, they have to adapt to European customs. If I go to another country with different customs, I have to do the same thing. I think it is good that people come, keep their gastronomic and cultural traditions but they have to follow the laws that are in place here. I say: we are happy that you are here, but you have to respect our rules, not yours.
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